RIP Jim Northrup

The Tigers have experienced their share of deaths recently, few of which, since the shocking and unexpected death of Mark Fidrych, have been entirely unexpected. I mean, people get old. When I see that a player from the 50's has passed, I am respectfully saddened and accepting. People die.

But it seems just a little too soon for players from the 1968 Tigers to die. A little too soon, and wrong.

The '68 Tigers are Detroit's legacy. Kaline, Horton, Lolich, McLain, Freehan -- I can go on and on listing the great players (borderline Hall of Famers, many) on that team and their legendary status in Detroit.

Personally, I'm more of an '84 kind of guy, but when you think about it, it is that '68 team that has had a more lasting impact on the franchise. Kaline is in the Hall of Fame. The injustices of Trammell and Whitaker (and, to a lesser degree, Morris) aside, he may be the Tigers last HOFer for another 20 years. Kaline and Horton have statues in the outfield, and their numbers retired. They are special assistants to the front office. That '84 team? Tram was given the boot and is coaching with Gibby in Arizona. Morris is a radio announcer for the Twins. Whitaker is a recluse who no longer participates in the team's spring training for some reason. Lance Parrish had a whole career after Detroit, and was on Trammell's staff when he managed here.

The bottom line: none of them are here. None of them are part of the franchise. None of them are part of Detroit.*

/digression.

Back to 1968. This was the team of my parents generation. I grew up hearing stories about the 1968 Tigers. Al Kaline was my dad's hero. My mom liked Rocky Colavito. When I met Don Wert somewhat randomly last year, I texted my dad and he responded with a few messages talking about his All Star season in '68 and how his hit clinched the pennant that year.

Seriously, who else knows who Don Wert is? These are the stories I heard growing up. These are the players that my parents knew the way that I can talk about Craig Monroe and Marcus Thames and Ramon Santiago and Nate Robertson and a whole collection of nobodies on the 2006 Tigers team.

----
These players are not supposed to die. It just feels too soon.

Jim Northrup was one of those players. I cannot tell you the number of old Tigers stories I heard that referenced Northrup one way or another. Whether it was about all the Grand Slams he hit, or about something minor he did that someone like Kaline or Willie or Gates or Rocky capitalized on or whatever, Northrup was, and remains, a familiar name to me.

This is in no small part because he was 1) good and 2) Won the World Series for the Tigers.

Game 7. Two on, two out in the 7th inning. Tigers have been held scoreless by Bob Gibson up to this point. Northrup rockets a triple well over the head of Curt Flood** to drive in the go-ahead runs. Freehan doubles to drive him in right after. Tigers win their first World Series in 23 years.

Northrup wrapped up that World Series having hit two home runs off Bob Gibson, with 7 hits and 8 RBIs overall. He slugged .536.

---

I'm ashamed to say that just last week I had stumbled upon a card set that I had never really paid attention to before. It was 2004 Upper Deck Legends "Timeless Teams." The purpose of the set is to highlight rosters of classic teams. For the Tigers this mean 1968, 1972, 1984 and 1987. In addition to the large team set (which I found and bought and am awaiting delivery on), every card in the set also has an autographed version which, although overwhelming, is really quite awesome when you consider that there are guys in this set that have never really received that type of cardboard recognition.

One of the cards (two actually, '68 and '72) that I found was of Jim Northrup.


It's a nice looking card and I thought to myself: "Cool, a card of Jim Northrup! I wonder what he's doing now?"

But I was doing other stuff and didn't really bother to look it up. I thought about bidding on the card, which was like $4 at the time, and vowed to check on it later and would pick it up if it was still cheap. Later came and went, I forgot to bid, the card sold for under $5 and three days later I read that Jim Northrup has died. I feel like an ass.

RIP Jim Northrup. I'll never forget about you again.


*This is, I believe, partly the fault of ownership and management. Trammell and his staff, including Gibson and Parrish, were given such a disrespectful heave-ho after the 2005 season that I don't blame them. Was it a mistake to fire them? No, not really. But just pushing them out the door made transparent the fact that they were only brought on in the first place as figureheads--known players that could help the fans ignore that there was an abysmal product on the field. Once the product started getting better, the team no longer needed to exploit the old players and off they went.

**No, he couldn't have gotten it even if he hadn't slipped.

Double Whammy

The Tigers had two former players pass away last Friday, each with memorable four letter names:

Reno:


Bobo:


The Detroit Free Press has a nice little writeup on Reno Bertoia while Larry Osborne gets a bit of press back east. Tom Gage of The Detroit News, who brought both deaths to my attention, has a great Bobo story, about his only career Grand Slam...that didn't count.

I picked up both of these cards at last year's National, and the Osborne in particular holds a special place in my heart for the great shot of an all-green Tiger Stadium in 1960.

RIP to the both of them.

RIP Woodie Fryman: We'll Always Have '72

Former Tigers pitcher Woodie Fryman died on Friday, at the age of 70. Woodie is one of those players that I know only from baseball cards. He was, by and large, a non-descript journeyman of a pitcher.

Except for in 1972.

Fryman was a portly 32-year-old southpaw whose career appeared all but over. He had never won more than 12 games. He was 4-10 with a 4.36 ERA for a lousy Phillies team when purchased Aug. 2

--snip--

All Fryman did was go 10-3 with a 2.06 ERA in 14 starts for the Tigers. He even won the division clincher on the next-to-last day of the season.

That, from a very nice Detroit Free Press article that remembers Fryman for being Doyle Alexander before Doyle Alexander was the guy that led the Tigers on an improbable stretch run to win the pennant in 1987. Fryman did it in '72.

He struggled for a few years, was traded, then struggled a few more, before turning to the bullpen to revitalize his career. He stayed in the majors until he was 43.

So RIP Woodie Fryman. For Tigers fans, we'll always have '72.

Gus Zernial 1923-2010

Shame on me. I am now the third card blogger to have written something about Gus Zernial, who died last Thursday from congestive heart failure. That response time is unacceptable, especially when I actually have a Gus Zernial card:



Ozark Ike (where do they get these nicknames?) was 87. MLB has a nice writeup that highlights his involvement in bringing AAA Baseball to Fresno.

Zernial ended his career as a part time player for the Tigers, and actually had a pretty good 1958 before his worst-of-his-career-in-all-categories 1959 wrapped things up. Baseball Reference provides the meat and potatoes.

Rest in Peace, Gus. Baseball Card Icon.

YIR: 2010 In Memoriam

Play a loop of "I Will Remember You" in your head at your own discretion.

Steve Boros (1957-1962; University of Michigan Alumnus.)

Walt Dropo (1952-1954)

Billy Hoeft (1952-1959)

Ralph Houk (MGR 1974-1978)

Bill Lajoie (Scouting Dept., Asst. GM, General Manager 1974-1990)

Jose Lima (1994-1995; 2001-2002)

Van Fletcher (1955)

Hal Manders (1941-42;1946)

Bob Shaw (1957-1958)

George Susce (1958-1959)

Sparky Anderson MGR 1979-1995

Ernie Harwell Voice of the Tigers 1960-2002

RIP Steve Boros

Another former Tiger dies in 2010.

Steve was known to many as the former manager of the A's. He was known to me as this guy.

From 1958 Topps

Also, this one.

From 1959 Topps

I'll leave it to the real reporters to do justiceto his memory. For me, I need to find those cards, both of which were picked up at the National this summer, and put them in their appropriate binder pages.

...Sunset

I feel like there has been a spate of baseball deaths this year. Maybe it just feels that way because so many have been high-profile players, but it just seems like a lot. The latest, at least the latest relevant to Tigers fans, was the passing of Walt Dropo, "The Moose from Moosup".

What ever happened to great location-based nicknames like this? Just the other day I heard "The Heater from Van Meter" over and over, now there's the "Moose from Mooseup." More of this, please.

When I heard that Dropo had died, I immediately pictured his 1953 card (yeah, the one staring back at you), because 1. Every card from that set is fantastic and 2. I thought I actually had that one. It turns out I don't (I got his picture confused with Fred Hutchinson). Dropo, by all accounts, was a tremendous athlete. He was drafted to play professional baseball, basketball and football out of UConn, he won the 1950 AL Rookie of the Year (Take that, Whitey Ford!) and was a legend in Connecticut. His New York Times Obituary is really quite impressive.

As someone who wasn't alive anywhere close to Dropo's era, it would have been easy for me to pass over this news, or not even recognize that Dropo was a former Tiger. I mean, a lot of players have played for a lot of teams and it is certainly hard to keep track of what player played for what team in some year thirty years before you were born, right?

Well, take this as my semi-annual "thank you" to baseball cards. If I didn't collect cards, I wouldn't have known who Walt Dropo was. It's that simple. His name wouldn't have stuck out to me when I was reading the news this morning, and I wouldn't have said, "Walt Dropo? He was a former Tiger from the 50s." to myself while I was drinking my coffee. This is why I collect--because no amount of baseball reference data or digital media, or video footage or new stories or books will make an individual player stand out as easily as a single baseball card. I'm proud that I know who Walt Dropo is, and I'm pleased to know that his name and legacy will live on because he has been permanently captured on cardboard.

Remorse of an Opportunist

A week ago today, baseball fans across the country were surprised with bad news: Sparky Anderson, the legendary manager of the Tigers and Reds, was extremely ill and in hospice care at his home in California. Now we Tigers fans are supposed to know how this goes. We're only six months removed from the death of Ernie Harwell, after all. But certainly, we were spoiled. Ernie was diagnosed with an incurable disease and spent his last year in the public eye, where we could all comfortably say goodbye.

Sparky offered no such luxury. On Tuesday he was sick. On Wednesday he was gone.

Meanwhile, just hours after the first announcement, and less than 24 hours from the second, I did something.

I bought an autographed Sparky Anderson ball. I knew that once he died the price was going to rise--this is what happened with George Kell and Mark Fidrych earlier this year. Before you know it the balls are out of stock, or insanely expensive.

So I jumped the gun, before prices could pre-emptively rise, and before Sparky could pass. The sad part is that for months--over a year, actually--I have had an old game-used baseball from Tiger Stadium sitting on my desk, next to a letter written to Sparky asking him to sign it. I just never got around to sending it. Which leaves me resorting to feeling like a sleazeball, by doing nothing more than not get exploited by the actual sleazeballs who would jack up prices when Sparky died.

Fast forward one week:

It's beautiful, in that somber kind of way. It's the shaky, old, somewhat depressing signature of a man who really had no business doing this anymore. I mean, enjoy your life, Sparky. Don't waste your time signing a baseball for someone who was timing the announcement of your upcoming death so that he could pay a lower price. That's disgusting. Spend some time with your family or in the outdoors or something.

But from everything I've read over the last week, Sparky was the kind of guy who would take the time to sign a ball, or hold a conversation or write a letter, even when he really didn't have the time or energy to do so. And that's what we're left with. A shaky signature from a man who could have been doing anything else with his final days, but signed this ball instead.

I can't say that that doesn't make me a little sad.

Sparky: The Detroit Years

“I like when they took my playing record off my baseball card and put on my managing record.”

You got it old man.


Rest in Peace, Sparky.

Sparky

That was fast. Sparky Anderson, legendary Tigers Manager, dead at 76, one day after he was reported to be gravely ill and in hospice care with "complications resulting from dementia."

Image: Detroit News

Former Tigers Manager Ralph Houk Dies at Age 90

Update: A beautiful post on what Houk meant to the Tigers from Bless You Boys. A must-read.

The hits just keep on coming for the Yankees. After the deaths of Announcer Bob Sheppard and Boss George Steinbrenner, former manager--and general manager--Ralph Houk has passed away. It just so happens, that Houk was a manager for the Tigers as well, which is why you're reading about it here. From the NY Times:

In January 1973, a syndicate headed by Steinbrenner bought the team. Under CBS, Houk had a free hand on the field while Lee MacPhail handled the front-office duties.

Houk quit on the final day of the 1973 season as the Yanks finished fourth in the Eastern Division. He said that he had not accomplished what he hoped for, and “I blame no one but myself.”

Houk managed for five years in Detroit, never finishing higher than fourth place, then retired to his Florida home.

There's a quaint piece of symmetry there, isn't there? What with the Steinbrenner connection and all? Anyway, Houk became the Tigers manager in 1974 after 13 seasons with the Yankees, leading to one of the most absurdly awful baseball cards I've ever seen:

How's that "D" on your hat working out for you Ralph? And nice pinstriped pajamas.

RIP to Ralph Houk and his 363-443 record with the Tigers from 1974-78. May your legacy be remembered for better things than that horrible 1974 Topps card.

A Tribute

RIP

The Time Has Passed

The news that Jose Lima--"Lima Time"--passed away yesterday took me surprise while I was drinking my coffee this morning. How old was he? Was he sick? Accident?

Or how about a terribly sad situation in which things feel wrong and you die in front of your wife:

The cause of death was ruled a heart attack, his wife, Dorca Astacio, told espndeportes.com.

"Jose was complaining while sleeping and I just thought he was having a nightmare," Astacio told the site. "I called the paramedics, but they couldn't help him."

He was 37 Years Old.

I remember Jose Lima pretty vividly. When I was a kid my baseball team used to go to games at Tiger Stadium and we would get there really early and go down to the dugouts and try to talk to the players. This was, of course, the mid-90s when nobody went to Tigers games and player access was easy to come by because of it.

Anyway, at this one game we got the attention of Jose Lima in the dugout, and although he didn't sign for us he reached into the HUGE team box of Bazooka Gum and handed us each a pack.

As if I didn't already want to be a Major Leaguer, I now knew that they had unlimited access to enormous boxes of gum in the dugout.

1996 Topps #366 Jose Lima

This 1996 card was the first Topps card of Lima as a Tiger. He was shipped off to Houston as part of a massive trade and went on to have his best years--winning 21 games in 1999--and became one of a list of players that we saw the Tigers get rid of, only to watch them become pretty decent players elsewhere.

The Tigers actually traded to get Lima back in 2001, which meant that we got this in 2002:

2002 Topps#452 Jose Lima

As you can see, his best years were pretty clearly behind him at that point:


Still, he would go on to play in the majors until 2006 and had an excellent season for the Dodgers in 2004, going 13-5 with a 4.07 ERA.

The timing of his death comes on the heels of this:

In 2004, as a member of the Dodgers, Lima fired a five-hit shutout against the Cardinals for L.A.'s only win in the National League Division Series. Lima remained a beloved figure in Los Angeles, often attending Dodgers games. He took in Friday's Interleague game against the Tigers with his son Jose Jr.

The fans gave him a standing ovation on Friday.

Only two current Tigers played with Lima in Detroit--Brandon Inge and Ramon Santiago--and Lima's death clearly shook the latter, who was just breaking into the big leagues when he was welcomed with open arms by his fellow Dominican:

"When I got to the big leagues, he bought me a custom-made suit, like immediately," Santiago said. "He said, 'What do you need?' I said, 'I don't have a suit.' He said, 'There's my tailor.' He bought like five custom-made, expensive suits from his tailor."

"I still have them. This is one of those."

By pure coincidence, because Sunday was a travel day for the Tigers, Santiago was wearing one of those suits Sunday morning when he learned of Lima's death. He was also wearing an emotionally shaken face as he entered the clubhouse.

--snip--

"He always took care of rookies," Santiago said. "I will remember him because of the way he treated me. ... He was like a dad for me here. He was the one to take care of me. It's very sad."

It is very sad. Lima was one of those players that you always saw on sportscenter goofing around in the dugout and frequently had a smile on his face. He was one of those good natured players that you would always just hear stories about. He certainly had a joy and passion for the game--an MLB.com article drops the requisite "fiery"--which is how he will be remembered best.

He was no Hall of Famer, no All-Star or "Face of the Franchise." Lima wasn't readily identifiable with any single franchise. He was a bit of a vagabond, an otherwise nondescript journeyman who had a couple good years the way they all seem to. But everybody knew Jose Lima. He was Lima Time. He was baseball-as-fun. He was Manny being Manny before Manny was being Manny.

He was the guy who gave a kid a pack of gum from the dugout.

Rest In Peace, Jose.

Former Tigers Lefty Billy Hoeft Dies at 77

File this one under "players you young whippersnappers don't know anything about until they die," which is sad. Cue the info from the Free Press

Hoeft, from Oshkosh, Wis., once struck out all 27 batters in a high school game. He began his Tigers career in 1952 and was an All-Star in 1955.

The Tigers traded Hoeft to the Boston Red Sox in 1959. He also pitched for the Baltimore Orioles, San Francisco Giants, Milwaukee Braves and Chicago Cubs before retiring after the 1966 season with a 97-101 career mark and 3.94 ERA in 15 seasons.

Of career highlights--Hoeft won 20 games for the 1956 Detroit Tigers, not bad for an 82-72 5th place team.

Also to my liking, Hoeft played in that wonderful era where baseball cards were just fabulous looking. Thanks to the magic of Topps' Million Card Giveaway database, I was able to snag images of Hoeft's cardboard immortality as a Tiger. All the best to his family and friends, and I encourage you to consult the cards to learn more about Hoeft's place in Tiger History.  Cue the music...

1953

1956--I don't know why he didn't have cards in 54 and 55. Anybody?

1957

1958

1959

The Grand Scheme Moves to the Paris of Oklahoma

What is the Grand Scheme? Explanation here.

A Moment of Silence
Yesterday, three people died within 16 minutes of each other while running the Detroit Half Marathon, in one of the most tragic days in distance race history. As I read the race reports last night in utter disbelief, I learned that one of the men caught Magglio Ordonez’s ALCS clinching walk-off home run in the 2006, inadvertently placing himself in Detroit Baseball History. Fox 2 Detroit has the story.



I remember that guy from back in 2006, which humanizes this tragedy even more. Also, this happened a week after an MIT grad student died while running the Baltimore Marathon—my wife and I ran the half marathon the same day—and I can’t help but notice that these things often happen without warning to otherwise healthy and typically young people. I am a young, healthy distance runner and these stories freak me out. What’s more, a very close friend of mine, another young otherwise healthy individual, just “celebrated” the one year anniversary of surviving the stroke that she had early in last year’s Detroit Marathon, suddenly, unexpectedly and without warning. She has recovered tremendously well and is working herself back towards running again. The wishes of this blog go out to all of the families and friends who have been affected by running tragedies like this.

If A Tree Falls
In the category of “this is crummy news, but not really that bad considering how this post started,” the Detroit Shock WNBA team is apparently leaving Detroit for Tulsa. The Shock won championships in 2003, 2006 and 2008, but suffered from the fact that they were a, uh, WNBA team. You better get your 2009 set while they last, or start tracking down the team's full cardboard history for yourself.



Topps Retail Parallels: Updates & Highlights Edition
Remember those retail exclusive parallel versions that everybody loved? Remember how in Series 2, Topps decided to make them nearly impossible to collect? Well, that fabulous tradition continues with Updates & Highlights. Preempting the retail release, I decided to ask Topps how they were planning to distribute the Walmart “Black” and Target “Throwback” versions. The answer is: poorly.

Thank you for your letter regarding Topps and its products.

Currently, the retail U&H products are slated to contain two packs of black or throwback cards similar to the Series 2 release.

We hope this information is helpful to you. As always, please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Service team (By phone: 1-800-489-9149, or by Email:support@etopps.com) if you ever have any other questions, comments or suggestions. A customer service representative will be available to answer your questions between the hours of 8:30am - 4:30pm (EST), Monday through Friday.

Thank you once again for taking the time to write. We appreciate your interest in Topps products and hope you continue to enjoy our site.

Sincerely,

Topps Customer Service team

Thanks guys. Glad to see you evened things out after already shooting yourselves in one foot with Series 2.

Upper Deck Has Inconvenient Updates Too!
Cards on Cards is all over this one. Upper Deck has a stealth update set inside of their retail “fat pack” offerings.



These are technically inserts, but could certainly fall into the realm of cards that I would want for my team set. If it looks like the base set and feels like the base set… No word yet on what the checklist looks like.

Connection Severed
In case you weren’t tipped off by the fact that I haven’t written an article for the Cardboard Connection in months, I am no longer writing for the Cardboard Connection. I submitted my e-resignation some time ago, never got a response and have let things pass. For what it's worth, the Cardboard Connection is a fine internet publication, and one that I read frequently. I just didn’t have the time or energy to contribute over there without sacrificing what goes on over here, while diminishing my own enjoyment of baseball-card related writing at the same time.

Misc. Sorry for the majority downer update and copious complaining. Part 3 of Cup of Coffee Tigers is up at The Spot Starters, cards to follow in the next day or two. Can somebody please print up some sets of RobbyT cards? They are sweet, and he has massive Tigers sets designed from the last few years. Some people dig Ballpark Collection, I will still read their blog anyway. Wax Heaven is giving away the goodies. Dinged Corners summarizes my weekend of reorganization attempts.

Former Tiger Brian Powell Dead At 35

I say this with no mal-intent, but many Tigers fans may have just said "who?". Not me. I don't remember Powell from his playing days, per se, but one thing immediately stuck out in my mind.

1995 Topps #244 Brian Powell RC

The Free Press has some details on Powell's journeyman career, and his constant battle to make the major leagues and stick there. He enjoyed two stints with the Tigers, in 1998 and 2002, part of his 59 total major league games. Yet while he may be forgotten by many Tigers fans, at least one Tigers collector remembers him. This was one of the cards that I needed to track down and trade for to complete my 1995 set, and I did so last year. Trivial perhaps, but baseball cards may be bigger than most people realize. If nothing else, they create a lasting record, history and memory of a player, no matter how big or how small. Through baseball cards, you get 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" inches of fame, the same as the Hall of Famers and All Stars before you.

I offer a brief and insufficient eulogy from the back of Powell's rookie card:

The Tigers' earnest effort to rebuild their farm system through pitching yielded the polished Powell in the draft's second round. Brian once struck out 20 hitters in a high school game and was third-round pick of the Angels in 1992. He chose, however, to attend Georgia, where he led the SEC in whiffs in '95.

Parting Shots

I couldn't resist. This is recommended reading as well (H/T to Lake Effect Cards)

Remembering Mark Fidrych

Mark Fidrych came before my time. My parents remember him very very well and could tell the great stories that only people who experienced him first hand, on a summer night in Tiger Stadium could. However, they're visiting my sister in Italy and couldn't relay a nice story for me to tell. If you want a well done story, Mark Rosenberg did an excellent job this evening.

All my life people have told me about "The Bird"--what he was like, how good he was, how sad that his career was cut short. How great the Tigers could have been with Mark Fidrych for a whole career. I will never forget the only time I ever saw him, with all of these great stories already impressed in my mind. He was in front of a packed Tiger Stadium, walking to the mound. Once he got there he stooped down and with his hand made a little pile of dirt. The crowd went absolutely wild, and I could almost see what he must have looked like doing that in 1976. He scooped the dirt into a plastic bag to make his final appearance at Tiger Stadium on the day it closed in 1999. Memories of being choked up that night certainly hit me a little harder at the moment.

While I never saw Fidrych in person again, two years ago my family celebrated my Grandpa's 90th Birthday. The family patriarch, he has stories of going to Tigers games every year since the days of Ty Cobb, with the exception of when he was stationed for World War II. I won't even try to get into the stories that he has of Tigers games dating back to the '20s. However, the Tigers organization, made aware of his 90th birthday, sent him a fan appreciation basket for sticking with the team for all these years. In addition to some Hank Greenberg signed items (Jews in Detroit understand his impact...speaking of stories. Watch The Life and Times of Hank Greenberg and you'll understand), a centerpiece of the box was a ball personalized by Mark Fidrych.

George, Happy 90th Birthday Mark Fidrych

"Oh Danny, remember Fidrych? He was something. The way he'd talk to himself out there like a crazy man and jump over lines. But boy was he great. Ruined his arm, but he was great."

"Yeah, I remember"

Which I did, strangely. All of the stories brought him to life for me, and will keep him alive as long as people tell them.

So long, Bird. We will never forget you, even those of us that never saw you play.

Enough is Enough: RIP Mark Fidrych

Oh come on. I was driving home listening to ESPN Radio this afternoon and amidst hearing about Harry Kalas' tragic death this afternoon, the semi-hourly radio Sportscenter segment mentioned that Mark Fidrych was found dead at his farm today. ESPN the website confirms it.

So, for the second time in a month, this site is going black--this time for "The Bird"



This 1979 card is one of two Birds that I have (the other is 1980) and just ended up in my possession courtesy of Scott at Hand Collated. The envelope he sent is one of many that I haven't been able to post yet.

Fidrych was only 54.

For the sake of the game, no more deaths for awhile, OK? Let's stick with this "bad luck comes in threes" thing. The tragic death of Nick Adenhardt, the unexpected and hard hitting loss of Harry Kalas and the loss of one of Detroit's most animated sports alumni, at least while he was still playing.

With the loss of Kell earlier this year, the Tigers have really had it tough this year.

So RIP to The Bird, and all of the other wonderful baseball men that we've lost recently.